If you are one of those who gets annoyed when I stop shticking for a moment, then this post is probably not for you. I promise we’ll get back to the safe, fuzzy world of boobs and giggles in a moment, but…
Here is a pretty even handed piece on how the some react differently to Obama versus Bush based on the pre-determined story of a person. This is so true. Once a person gets pegged and categorized, every action he commits will be filtered through that initial baseline narrative we bestowed on him. The presidency is a can’t win job. There is no action that cannot be pierced with the arrows of criticism. Save a baby from a burning building? Why didn’t you save the other kid that was only ten feet away? Was he not cute enough?
On another topic-
One of my friends, who is a very smart man, went through a couple of very dogmatic and very fundamental phases- once with Christianity, and once with Objectivism. We used to have some intense debates. He was put off by my skepticism, as I am always suspicious of such smothering certitude. I argued that closed, self-referential systems were highly intoxicating and seductive because they were a salve to fear and and an antidote to the inherent messiness of existence. Plus they confer special status. Anyway, my friend is not that way anymore. We both grew, and thankfully continue have really good talks to this day. Yesterday he sent me this link (click through after ad) about the allure of the complete system, in this case Scientology.
My favorite part is the following, which summarizes our many talks on the subject brilliantly. The author, who at one time flirted with Scientology, says this about the allure of complete systems:
I think now that at the bottom of that dream of power and perfection is fear and pain, and spiritual loneliness and isolation. There is some emotional wound, a fear of being vulnerable, a fear of letting anyone know how scared we are and at the same time a grandiose belief that if we can just find a system that can fix us, we will never have to join society and be simply a citizen among citizens. If we can find the system that trumps everything, we can always remain special and different and unique and better than the rest. And it exempts us from recognized and accepted tests of merit — scholastic achievement, work success, marriage and family, gaining a solid reputation, finishing projects, making art, that kind of thing.
Good stuff.
That’s all for now.
Gordo- thank you very much for posting this. Not to sound too gay, but postings like this make me respect and admire you very much. I appreciate you sharing with us your thoughts and experiences and give us a peek into your head. I, too, am fascinated with such topics and enjoy getting into deep philosphical debates with close friends.
Thanks for helping me laugh and think every morning.
Dear thetrailerpark:
Well said and I concur 100% with you sentiment. Your post did not sound too gay. The fact of the matter – Gordo has a huge male following that adores his brain and most of us are not gay. I admire his intellect so and recognize that he is truly a self-taught renaissance man. Ok – now I have gone a bit man crush-ish here. Sorry, Brian
I’m sorry did I miss the hidden boob joke?
Thetrailerpark,
your shit is all f*cked up and you talk like a fag. But I love when Gordo gets all phylosoficated on our asses too.
Obama gets kid gloves from the left-leaning press. It’s just that simple. There aren’t enough right-leaning newspapers/cable tv stations/blogs/etc. to successfully point out all the crap Obama has and has not done. His administration is taking this country so far left, so fast…. And that SNL skit a few weeks back was funny but it was so true and that made it scary. Obama sits on the fence about major issues and lets them ride, maybe hoping they go away. Like Guantanamo Bay, Afghan War, Jobless Rates, etc.
What he and his administration do spend their time on though, is spending more and more money than ever before and polarizing any media outlet that doesn’t tow the party line.
If Bush sneezed wrong we heard about it for 3 days on a non-stop loop of vitriol. Obama buzzes NYC with Air Force One for a photo OP that costs $150,000 and that just goes away. Examples like that are endless.
By the way, what’s wrong with your friend being a Christian?
It was less about Christianity and more about fundamentalism.
“If we can find the system that trumps everything, we can always remain special and different and unique and better than the rest. And it exempts us from recognized and accepted tests of merit — scholastic achievement, work success, marriage and family, gaining a solid reputation, finishing projects, making art, that kind of thing.”
That is not a specific “religion thing” and not distinctly a “fundamentalist thing.” It is a people thing. People suck in that way. Man is inherently selfish and narcissistic, and not good by nature. Man yearns for and is drawn to good. FOR MANY, IT’S RELIGION that inspires and motivates for these “accepted tests or merit.” To say that one can do it without a belief in a higher being and use one’s self as proof also puts one in a sort of “complete system.” To put the onus on religion is a refuge for those in the “complete system of intellectualism.” Amazingly enough (maybe shocking to some), the greatest leaders in history or in the world today probably aren’t those who attended IVY League Schools.
No sir, people are people. “San Dimas High School Football Rules!!!” Is funny because we all find superiority in our groups. We all find or create our desired systems. Both positive and negative systems. Remember when you thought you were the only one from an f’d up family (until, that is, you fell in love with your first girlfriend and that was all you needed to have in common?
I applaud the author’s acknowledgement of “complete system” and agree with their allure and danger, but to put that only on religion, especially fundamentalism, is mistaken.
Jesus e’f me – why when someone talks about Christianity – it’s always in the negative. Why when someone brings up a question – a legit questin – why do Christians think they are being attacked?
Is it because their religion defines them as being attacked – or is it because they are the most oppressed people in this country?
No. I think that most Christians live their lives the way they want to – without interruption – they live the way they want to, without interruption.
They are victims because that is what their religion wants them to be –
God, please, deliver me from Christians – for my Country – for the United States of America – please, God, deliver me from Christians – that is all that I ask – please, Amen.
Let’s just call this comment “Exhibit A.”
Witty.
Obama buzzed NYC with Air Force One??? Really? Check your facts.
Gordon:
I love both sides of you. With that said, the serious side always leads to great discussion in our house. I enjoy so much your willingness to look ( in a mirror) at your own position on an issue – and if not forced to defend it – you’ll tear it apart just in case your initial analysis was flawed. If it survives your scrutiny, then you have confirmed your initial position again… until you pass by another mirror. It keeps you honest, balanced and introspectively challenged.
Thanks again. Brian.
Gordon
Thank you for this post. Love the bits that are required for 1310 (which is on 24/7). On a more sacred note: you are a true philosopher, just know that.
nip nip
Gordon,
Agreed POTUS is a no win job for anybody…(know you love the three dots) but that’s why they call it “public service”. On the other topic, that’s why I love being an Atheist, I don’t need a salve for my fear, it’s all on me.
Keep on with the good strong and keep questioning, that’s why you are the shit!
Jorma
I wouldn’t think putting all of life’s problems, fears and its eventual end on oneself is a good thing. It may seem self-sufficient, but will more than likely end up being self-destructive.
Gordo — you are my hero. every day you say things I wish I’d said or could say … and serious gordon seems to have all the same opinions as me and I really like that in a person. thank you for your courage.
Gordon:
Thanks for this.
My only comment, which sounds like an argument but really isn’t, is that Christianity isn’t the closed system you think it is. Yes, I’m aware you grew up in it, and you know as much about it as anyone. And I’m aware that many Christians treat it as closed. But true Christianity insists on involvement with those who aren’t Christians. Not just involvement, but immersion.
It’s a sad thing that so many Christians close themselves off, and send kids to Christian schools, listen to Christian music, and go to Christian stores where they can buy Christian books and Christian movies and for all I know, Cross-shaped Christian paper clips. But like I said, that isn’t true Christianity. True Christianity is reflected in the story of Jesus sending the 70 out to live with people, and help them in many ways. It’s also reflected in Acts 17, where Paul met with Greek philosophers who worshipped idols, and he talked to them on their terms, never slamming them for what they believed, but also explaining to them what he believed, from their frame of reference.
This is true Christianity, and it should keep us from separating ourselves from the rest of the world.
Middletree,
I think your post is very insightful. I grew up in a Baptist household and for many years as a child I enjoyed going to Sunday school and even Church. I found the history of the Hebrew people fascinating and thought that Revelations was something straight out of a Stephen King novel. However, what pushed me away from that Baptist Church and consequently organized religion in general was the new wave of strict evangelicalism that seemed to be sweeping through most Baptist churches in the mid 90s. I have always been a curious and somewhat skeptical person and the absolute certainty with which the people behaved and condemned all those who would disagree or even question the dogma that came from their lips really disturbed me. As if my questioning their theory on the teaching of a being that existed 2000 years ago was somehow questioning the very existence of a supreme being. And every time they seemed stumped or their story fell apart, I would be greeted with a disapproving look and a line such as “well this is what the bible says, so I think you just need to believe what the bible says and stop asking such disrespectful questions”. I had always operated under the impression that God created us as curious and questioning beings that wanted us to wrestle with our faith and ultimately with him, such was not their position.
I remember my new Sunday School teacher saying on the third class he ever thought that if you don’t believe like I am going teach you to believe then (“in the words of Jesus Christ”), I shall “vomit” you from my mouth. 15 years later, I still remember those words and the venom with he which he said them. I also remember thinking right then and there “I’m out”.
I believe that this world is too full of the mysterious and the unknown for we tiny, insignificant beings to have any claim to absolute certainty about anything. I think it is fine to believe in a power greater than yourself, in fact I think it is actually very healthy to do so. It humbles us and makes us believe that we are part of a bigger story than just our own lives. However, when we use that belief to downgrade others or elevate ourselves, I believe we do disservice to those peaceful teachings and to our fellow man.
As a prosecutor, people always ask me about how bad defense attorneys are. I always tell them that I have no problems with defense attorneys in general. What I have a problem with is an attorney, be it a defense attorney or a prosecutor who always believes that they are right merely because of the side they are on, regardless of the facts. The most dangerous and incompetent thing I can think of in the legal profession is a “true believer”. I think the same holds true for this topic as well.
Thanks for the space and sorry for overextending.
Vaginal slice born born, baby arm, and piggy Greggo
It’s the “lukewarm” he spits from his mouth. Implying that “lukewarm” Christians, comprising the majority of people who identify themselves as Christians today, should be very concerned. This implies that he would rather you be with him or agin’ him. Just don’t try to make yourself feel better about yourself by singing songs and listening to sermons, sitting on the sidelines to be entertained, yet be offended when your toes are stepped on.
Clinton,
Your reply to me included some comments that I personally don’t agree with. I do think Jesus is the only way, but that’s a separate thing from saying that I endorse all that has been done and said in His name.
I have to strongly agree with you, especially your final 3 points, except that I’d have to favor Little Girl Greggo over Piggy Greggo.
I had a similar Sunday school experience with the Methodist church in the midwest when I was young’un. It’s sad when a 9-year-old is more open-minded than the adults he’s supposed to be looking up to.
Clinton,
People who know me will think that I wrote your comment because your background is eerily similar to my own. Except that I grew up in the Church of Christ (a lot like Baptists, only without all the fun). I’m also a prosecutor and I get the same questions about defense lawyers. Like you, I hate the True Believer. I’ve noticed that True Believing prosecutors tend to become True Believing defense attorneys once they leave the DA’s office.
Although I have rejected, on an intellectual level, nearly all of the dogma that I was taught in church, I still pray. And what I pray for regarding my job is wisdom and humility; that God will help me find the energy to seek the truth, the wisdom to recognize it when I see it and the courage to act on it, regardless of where it leads.
For one engaged in a profession which can so profoundly affect the lives of others,it seems to me to be a necessary prayer.
Gordo,
Your greatness lies in your willingness to examine yourself, and not just the dirty parts. It is that intellectual work ethic that marks you as something far more substantial than the average yuck monkey. I can’t imagine how difficult it must be to conduct honest self analysis in the face of constant, withering criticism. The easiest route would be to simply point at the ratings and say, “see, y’all are all just idiots”. It must be equally difficult to keep your ego in check when commentary goes the other way. Anyway, stay hard for as long as you can, we need you.
Bottom line, people hurt people. All of the experiences that push people away from a belief are from those that make it into religion. I am a Christian and there is right and wrong. Right is the Light of God. Wrong is the Darkness withouth HIm.
The fact is that we all have periods of darkness, including preachers, church founders, youth ministers, etc. What hurts people is when those with influence try to cast their own light on what they perceive to be dark patches in the lives of others. I’m sorry if that has been done to any of you, but please don’t hold that against God. If you seek HIm with an open heart, you will find HIm.
For all the reasons written here the old Hellfire and Brimstone preachers are becoming a thing of the past. Jesus was the loving Son of GOD. The “HUMAN” beings preaching HIS name are ALL imperfect. We are to seek HIM (JESUS) and be like him and no one else.
All preachers sin, as do all Sunday school teachers, and everyone else on the planet. Jesus did teach inclusion and only gave warnings like “Bad company corrupts good morals” on occasion to teach a lesson. We, as Christians, should be out in the world proclaiming the saving grace of Jesus but not living the worldly life of those we are looking to convert.
I agree HE would not do it the way it has been done in the past. However, some of what those old preachers still is true today. We, as a society, are surely going to hell in a hand basket with the “CRAP” we allow others to “GET AWAY WITH” without punishment. But we tend to judge people on their actions but want to be judged on our intentions. That is the most hypocritical thing of all.
It is one thing to have good judgment but quite another to sit in judgment of others. It is not our place to sit in judgment but to be discerning followers of Christ Jesus and to be more like him every day. For instance, I don’t judge people who are “GAY”. That is between them and GOD as far as I am concerned. I don’t believe people are born gay but I am no expert in that area either. God will judge, not me. There are some very fine people who are gay. Some are not so fine. The spread of good and bad is not confined to heterosexual or homosexual people. And for that matter not all of the people from Islamic countries are radical and want us dead. I lived in Iran and still would like to see the country again. There are really good people and really bad people there as well. It is just that their really bad people are willing to kill for their religious beliefs. And before someone chides them for that lets not forget all of the people killed in Jesus name. I am sure he is sick with the knowledge that someone was killed because an ignorant person felt it was what Jesus wanted him to do.
ringgerb,
I know the line from relevation 3:16 refers to one being either hot or cold but not lukewarm in their love of Christ. My point however, was that I do not believe that it is benefical for the spirtual growth of a young person who is already confronting the inherient problems of puberty, freshmen year in high school and just the all around crappiness of being a 13 year old to tell them that the God that is all loving and all giving and all merciful is going to puke them out of his benovolent mouth should I not follow the specific teachings of this Sunday School director. As a person who tries to sway people to my side on a daily basis I could not think of a worse method of rhetorical logic.
Middletree, I never meant to imply that you do not believe in Christ as the risen God and if you got that from my post, I apologize. I am a HUGE fan of Christ. I believe his teachings are inspirational and full of wisdom. What I do not appreciate is man using those words to subject others, or inspire fear in the hearts of the timid and less informed, or using them to enhance their own earthly power. And it seems to me that organized religion is such a “my way or the highway” ordeal that it makes me wonder if these people are more concerned about saving my sould and giving me a much needed inner peace or whether they just want to have the most players on their team so they can advance an agenda that I find to have little to do with the teachings of Christ.
Now I can I please get a sandwich with some mustard, lettuce and a low land gorilla, I’m starving.
Honestly, this comment is worth nothing to me. I know that sounds harsh, but EVERY Christian thinks their “brand” of Christianity is the “true Christianity”. Middletree has said nothing new or compelling to make his brand any different or truer than all of the others.
So all I see when I read stuff like that is “blah blah MY WAY IS THE RIGHT WAY blah blah IGNORE THOSE OTHER PEOPLE CLAIMING THE SAME THING BECAUSE THEY ARE CRAZY blah blah blah godcakes”.
hot chocolate liberal,
If it’s worth nothing to you, then don’t waste your time commenting on it. These people are being very open and honest about their beleifs and experiences, and your response is a very Chris Chris “you Christians are all a bunch of homos!” And no S__T every body thinks their particular belief system is right. Why would you believe it if you thought otherwise? I believe your a f-ing idiot, but I’m sure you have different belief about yourself. See I’m not beeing a good Christian becuase I’d rather pimp slap you than love you as Christ directs me to. But that’s between me and God and has nothing to do with you, and that’s what Christianity is, a personal relationship with God. You’re having, I’m Arby’s.
Dude, not to get into an argument here, but you just made an indefensible generalization. And on top of that, it’s not true. I’ll allow your opinion if you restate it as such; otherwise, you’ve blown your credibility. May I suggest you visit the Unfair Park blog, where unsubstantiated generalizations run rampant.
senor,
were you talking to me or liberal? If you were talking to me, please point out my indefensible generalization.
I was responding to the original poster, not you, Derek. Carry on. Meh.
Thanks Gordon,
I think I flip from both sides of the fundamentalism vs. spiritualism perspective of faith and existence. It is a tough subject to wrestle with indeed, especially with other people.
I do like that quote as well. Do you still subscribe to Christian morality and/or faith? Are you apart from the organised concept of general practiced religion? I don’t ask because I wish to witness to you, just to more understand your point in the statements above.
Thanks now please back to fart jokes and fake Jerry, it keeps the realization of morality away.
Gordo, I ragged on you last time for getting away from the boobs and giggles, but I took the time to read both articles tonight. They are both very interesting. On the allure of complete systems, I too have had a friend of 20 years who still to this day is seriously involved in what many think of as a cult. It’s a fine line, and it’s not easy to walk. We have been able to make the friendship work, but it wasn’t a result of me trying to “get him out”. I had to be willing to accept that he wasn’t coming out, and determined I still wanted to be his friend, and be there for him anyway. There’s no simple answer. And may answer may work for no one but me. That’s life.
Remember, “Lord loves a workin’ man, Don’t trust whitey”.
And don’t forget to see a doctor and get rid of it.
I think your second point feeds the first. I could lay out a party-free list of platform bullet points in front of my Dad, and his opinions would place him on the side opposite of the one he so vehemently espouses. But it’s his sense of identity, and system, that keeps him voting straight (letter deleted).
As long as we have the “Socialists vs. the Teabaggers” mindset I’m afraid that not much will get done.
I, too, had a friend that would engage me in a very thought-provoking manner and I’m sad to say that we’ve lost touch for various reasons.
That which you wrote aroused that forgotten piece of my life.
I’m not quite sure that a ‘Utopian’ paradigm can exist in the current architecture of our minds. Life as we know it could be described as a series of chemical interactions, the most mystical being the brain, that have not only stood the test of time, but carry with them the very answer you seek.
In my opinion, if there ever were a roadmap to what lies ahead and what we should expect to happen can be discovered in our past.
I think as man progresses he is getting farther from the spiritual connection or religious affiliations that man has been better connected with in the past.
I believe there is a direct connection between a religious, spiritual or even alien world that we don’t fully understand and the human race. Most adhere to religious teachings, to some degree, because it’s been passed down from the very beginning.
I believe the truth to this religious origin, distorted and clear in many ways by the very nature of the human element, has either given birth to several variations of a ‘master religion’ or is a clear example of the different facets of religions or ’societies’ that curerently exists as different points of view, different ways of life, the do’s and don’t’s, and the existence of likes and dislikes of everything that has ever had a value placed upon it.
I think the merits and achievements of life are not only measured individually, but are done so without our ability to change it until the natural reactions within the unique capacity of each person’s mind take place. It is this unique capacity, this mystic machine we call the brain, that interracts with the physical body every person is familiar with (which is how we know what we like, dislike, can tolerate, makes us mad or happy).
On the flips side, there is this interraction with the mind and spiritual world that we’ve not only gotten farther away from, but not so far away that we don’t know something is there, and many aren’t sure how to interract with it. It’s this lack of knowledge of that part of our minds that provokes our thoughts and questions and interractions with others to find the knowledge that will hopefull allow man to one day come closer to that very discovery that may allow us to live a lobotomized, yet completely fullfilled life one day. If that were the case, would we then cease to be human?
You support the legalization of marijuana, don’t you?
If legalization means intelligent responses like yours, I’ll vote no.
I mean, really….is it that hard to follow the rules??
I like the post! My take…humans are stupid. You may have a savvy individual, but throw him in a group and you get an idiot support system. The bystander effect working backwards.
Gordo, you are a smart man. As i was reading your post, a mental picture, of something called the Iceberg Illustration kept on coming into my head. It answers your Baby in the burning building question, explains why the Church of Scientology is so successful, and is reflective of your favorite part in the second article. The illustration shows how a persons needs evolve into their actions. I don’t really know what i am trying to get at here. But I feel that the Iceberg Illustration clarifies much of your post, and gives us a guideline for how to approach the situations brought up in the two articles.
Hope this isn’t a waste of words, and thank you for your time.
Gordon:
I’ve been an avid 1310 listener for sometime, but only recently have become a fan of the early show, and regular listener. The realism of you, and your compatriots on the morning show, that gravitas that y’all exhibit is a very compelling, and unique force.
I had the distinct pleasure of having my fundamentalist foundations rocked, and ultimately destroyed one spring in College. To an extent I believe Karl Marx’s quote, ” Religion is the opiate of the people”, is very true, we use it as a warm fuzzy blanket to give order, meaning, and purpose to this chaotic, and seemingly accidental existence. However, I think I’ve come to think of it as an evolutionary milestone. Religion allows us to unify, and overcome an inherent “flaw” in cognition, the knowledge of you’re own morality.
Gordo well thought out positions like this truly teach me the meaning of what staying “Hard” is all about. I feel that we can all learn from you and the maybe life will not be so… hard.
god speed my son
Gordo, with a father who is a preacher, I am surprised that you are not a Christian. I won’t try to convince you that you can trust the Holy Bible to be accurate and divinely inspired. But I will be praying for you.
Gordon is a Christian.
Rod:
I would encourage you to re-read Gordo’s entry and find where he says he not a Christian. I believe he’s referring to having a healthy skepticism to fundamentalist dogmas of many kinds, not just religious ones. I would assume that being a preacher’s kid, he’d be exposed to the messy “underbelly” of a church… the petty, hypocritical, _human_ aspect of group of “sinners”. To me, that’s what Gordon is speaking about in this post, the dangers of mistaking certitude for certainty.
It reminds me of that great quote from the poet-philosopher Bob Dylan, from his album “Exile on Main Street”… “Living is easy with eyes closed, misunderstanding all you see”.
After re-reading my post, I realized that two people read the EXACT same divinely inspired post and drew two different conclusions from it…
“Let us, like Him, hold up one shoe and let the other be upon our foot, for this is His sign, that all who follow Him shall do likewise.”
Which version of the Bible is that? The one that was cut apart and “divinely” changed by King James? The original Aramaic texts? The books that didn’t make the cut?
Actually…being a preacher’s kid would make it EASIER for me to believe someone was not a Christian. As someone else mentioned, being in that position exposes a person to the ugly, underbelly of religion.
On the surface that seems like a hard pill to swallow. Multiple translations, the picking and choosing of books. inspired words of God. But a couple of things to think about.
How has the text survived for so long? Why can’t it definitively be refuted? At the time it was written and began to be passed from village to village, Christianity was a sub-culture. It was not the dominant political force it is now. So it can’t be passed off as “just being accepted.” Because it basically completely overthrew what the prominent religions and political systems wanted people to believe.
So if it wasn’t Divinely inspired, would it still exist in its same form?
Christians good.
Obama bad.
That’s all for now.
One of these two things has a long, storied history of prejudice, subjugation, imperialism, and evil, the other is Barack Obama…. oh wait.. sorry I gave away the answer…
Tell homosexuals that Christianity is good. As for trusting in the holy bible, what about the passages we as “good” Christians overlook ? How about the excerpts from Leviticus that aren’t dealing with homosexuality ? Are those not as accurate ? How about the passage forbidding cutting your hair ? Or tattooing your flesh.
Christianity does NOT have a long history of prejudice and evil. You tell a homosexual that their function is natural and you would be a liar. Biology has plenty to say about that.
You can not pt together a good argument if you are ignorant of what you try to argue! How can you argue against Christianity using examples that occurred before Christ even walked the earth, let alone established His church?
Jeff,
the crusades, the inquistion, the catholic priest/alter boy scandals, prayers being said before Klan rallies, preachers using passages from Joshua to justify slavery, Northern Ireland, Jerry Falwell asking all the gays, non-believers, etc if they are happy for causing 911. All this in the name of Christ. It does not make the teachings of Christ wrong but like any large multinational organization run by flawed human beings, it has some aspects that are not commendable. To just say that Christianity does not have a history of some prejudice or evil is to ignore history
Also, male monkeys sometimes pump eachother in the butt and my male dog once tried to hump a male pig. Is that because they made a choice?
clinton – I don’t think they made a choice but they are ANIMALS!!! Are you sure that’s the example you want to make to support your position (no pun intended)?
Clinton,
All those things you listed mean nothing when compared to Christianity. What is Christianity? It is doing what Christ commands us to do. If you don’t do what Christ commands you to do then you are not practicing Christianity but a perversion of that religion.
If I went out and raped a girl and said I did it in your name, does that mean that you told me to (I kept the emails as proof btw)? This is what you can not accept. There is a difference between Christianity and those who pervert it. Christianity doesn’t have a bad history. Those who pervert it have a dark and evil history.
As for a male monkey pumping another male monkey, yes they make a decision! They feel the need to release some “steam” and choose where to release it just like your dog. I bet your dog loves to release steam on your leg, does that mean he was born with a genetic makeup of being attracted to legs?
Jeff,
An organization is defined not by its original mission statement but by the actions of its members. By your logic Communism does not have a history of evil because in its purest form it is merely an extension of the writings of the New Testament book of Acts 4:32 – 5:11 which states that each was given according to his means and each according to his needs. It is only through the actions of those like Stalin, Mao, Chavez, etc that the true form of Communism became perverted. On paper each of us living in a utopia in which we freely give our excesses to the less fortunate in our society sounds really nice (in fact it sounds a lot like the teachings of Christ doesn’t it?).
For the record, I would never tell you to rape a girl. As a prosecutor in Austin, I actually sent a guy to jail for 45 years a month ago for doing just that. Seems weird that you would pick that of all possible examples out of the thin air, but I digress.
As for homosexuality, your post proved my point. The animals commit homosexual acts not because they choose to, but because they are wired to do so and they are “ANIMALS”. I got news for you chief, you are an animal or did you believe that you were a plant or some sort of rock formation. Your DNA is a 99.3% match to that of a chimp.
I am sure you are wired to like some foods over others, or to maybe prefer hot weather over cold, or bad analogies over good ones. You have that bias not because you choose to live your life preferring hot weather to cold but because somewhere in your DNA make up, your body and mind told you, “look, you like hot weather over cold”. The same is true for a person’s sexuality. I do not think that anyone, given the choice would choose to live a life enduring the constant ridicule and degradation that homosexuals are constantly subjected to.
Your posts crystallize exactly the kind of dogmatic adherence to a complete system that Gordon was talking about in his original post.
I do not mean to question your beliefs nor would I ever say that you are wrong about the mystery of life and that I have all the answers. Actually quite the opposite, we live in a mysterious universe that we know little to nothing about. I think we all need to leave ourselves open to the possibility that we could be wrong while holding onto the hope that we are right.
The second article said “if we can just find a system that can fix us”. Here lies the crux of the issue, Gordo. If there is no religious system, or something greater than ourselves to turn to then we are not broken. We have no calling greater than that of an animal. We have no right and wrong and can not be held to any higher standard than that of an animal.
As to a “seemingly accidental existence” that James referred to, how is that possible? How could the human body be looked at as accidental? How could the perfect axis that our planet revolves on be seen as an accident when if it was slightly tilted we would all be dead?
People view Christianity or religion as a crutch because they don’t want to admit there is something greater than their ego. BUT when Christianity is practiced, in it’s true form, it does nothing but help society to become a better, more peaceful place.
Clinton – you must have received your diploma from your box of Honeycombs.
You are hurting the left cause, I fear.
Just like Al Franken.
You’re a lawyer?
Well, you do have long, rambling “arguments” that go nowhere, so there might be truth to that.
Aren’t you supposed to be working in your position? I’m just mid-level sales. I have the time.
To quote from the Chicago Jesus vs. Chimpybushitler article:
“There may well be almost an unconscious effort on the part of the media to give Obama a bit more slack because he is more likable, because he is the first African-American president. That plays into it,” said Sherry Bebitch Jeffe, a political analyst at the University of Southern California.
Do you remember when Rush Limbaugh said basically the same thing about McNabb and what happened? I am no Limbaugh supporter but this really illustrates the crazy world we inhabit now. If I criticize Chicago Jesus, I am a racist teabagger. In the same breath the “progressives” say that he should get a free pass because his “story” is so compelling. Bullshit!
It turns out John Edwards was right, but not in the way he meant. There are two America’s now. I don’t see it coming back together I am afraid. I am starting to suspect, that’s just as well. Anyone who can’t see that Obama is nothing more than a carefully crafted “brand” is a slack jawed drone. Bush has numerous faults and flaws and these are just being ramped up and packaged in a different way. It’s New Coke and nothing more. I would sit back and laugh at the absurdity of it all, if it wasn’t so dangerous for the future. Oh well, we be FUBAR now.
Titus 2:11-13 (King James Version)
11For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
If anyone believes that God is Creator and perfeect (why would anyone believe in an imperfect God?) and that His Word is inerrant and infallible, then the Word says to love the sinner, hate the sin, and live not like those who love the things of the world and flesh.
Why is that so hard? Shouldn’t we have a God that gives us completeness? Shouldn’t He be able to make the system well defined and absolute-HE’S GOD!
The original Apostolic Christians converted others because they spoke about changing they way they live, and then died for it without retracting this faith. Why is that so hard for people to grasp?
Ok, these are good quotes. Now do me a favor. Find me a quote that says abortion is murder. Not one that says “Thou shall not kill” but give me one that instructs us not to have an abortion.
I use this point because it is the easiest way to support the point I think Gordon is making. We read what we want to read. We slant the bible to mean what we need it to be. We live in our own bubble so that we can be happy. There isn’t anything wrong with this unless you start killing and condemning others for their bubble.
(And just to answer my own question. Regarding abortion the bible only says that if you accidentally kill an unborn child you must pay the parents money.)
accidentally kill a child is one thing, but intentionally kill a child is another ( that is called murder aka abortion )
Ok,see you did just what I said. If the Bible is the word of God and God does not specifically say it; how can you assume anything. You assume that it applies because you need it to apply. As others post have pointed out, people use the Bible to justify many things that just aren’t in it.This book can not be both literal and open to interpretation.
Will, that passage says for Christians to avoid sin. It doesn’t say to withdraw from the culture.
Most “culture” is worldliness. Not all, but most. Simply put, if the sin set forth, get away from it. Soddom and Gommorah?
1 Timothy 6:4-6 (King James Version)
4He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
5Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
6But godliness with contentment is great gain.
2 Timothy 3
1This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
These all keep away from sin, areas full of sin, and those who enjoy sin. People don’t attempt to win souls in a bar, because that isn’t where that should take place. Apostolic Christians should be friendly, love and help others, and reach out to the lost, but never allow themselves to be acceptable to being in the place of where sin is okay. That is what happened to Saul, Lot, Solomon, Eli, etc.
Gordon, you are one of the funniest guys I’ve heard on the airwaves, and definitely bright.
Probably the only thing I don’t like on your show is the constant bitterness and jabs you take at Christianity.
Organized religions, every one of them, will have followers who don’t do their faith credit.
So you can attack the Tiltons and the like and most people don’t care – but attacking the Bible and Christ Himself – that’s another level, and wrong, and offensive to a huge number of folks.
(and not just in our Bible Belt)
Continues best wishes to you and to the show.
Why is attacking the Bible bad? Christians attack the Koran and that is Ok, but speak bad about Christianity and the wheels come off. People that think that they “know” all of the answers and are not open to other thoughts are scary individuals, and many “Christians” act this way. I am so tired of hearing that the U.S. is a Christian nation. It was not founded on Christianity, it was founded on a right to worship freely (whoever or whatever that is).
It isn’t that attacking the Bible is bad, it is that attacking any other religion is viewed as hate speech and is not tolerated while attacking Christianity is praised and popular.
@Jeff: Oh look, a Christian playing the victim card. That’s new and original.
I don’t recall Gordon attacking Jesus. Please point that out to me.
Jesus on a pogo stick,
This has nothing to do with being a victim… I am not. I am just calling it as it is. Where in this country are you allowed to teach Christianity in the public schools? Where are you allowed to teach Christian tolerance classes? NO WHERE! Where are you allowed to teach about Islam and have Islam tolerance classes? All over the place.
It’s nice to hear you generalizing and hating on Christians… that’s original.
Good point, Jeff.
But you may be wasting calories on genuine discourse. Look at the guy’s “screen name” – obviously a button-pusher just blindly hating on Christians..usually you’d have to go to an Ivy League school or CNN to get that.
Religion does come from a deep fear that we need to try and earn some sort of right standing with a higher being or face punishment of some sort. I would say that “spiritual loneliness” comes from a deep desire for relationship. It’s easier to run a race with someone than alone. You can focus on keeping the other person going, and in doing so, push past your own pain. Maybe that is the key to inner peace and happiness: To just love others, help those in need, care for the homeless, defend the weak, and repair the broken. We are never more like any “God” than when we show grace to someone, and we are never as full as when we pour ourselves out for others.
I think it is easy to throw Christianity under the bus (like some of the comments have, you quite honestly haven’t.) But what people seem to glaze over is the fact that every action of humanity is based on an individual level. I think that regardless of outside pressures humans have the capability to be introspective, thoughtful (like you Gordon) and choose their actions and how they lead their lives accordingly. Christianity is nothing more than a means for the faithful to open up a dialogue with what we call “God”. Is Christianity at fault for people becoming sheep and following the religion blindly? No. Regardless of the institution that people follow blindly, yes their may be malice in those who organize it – perhaps the desire to control, if we were more responsible with our thought, our faith, etc. then we wouldn’t have problems with mindlessness. Perhaps that is just the mindless rambling of a tired 19 year old.
And so it goes. Gordon, your talents are many. And one of my favorites is your knack for getting the ants stirred up with your intellectual musings. As much as I enjoy the boobs and giggles, having an intelligent dialogue on this site amuses me to no end. Something I have learned from my lifetime of Christianity in a sin-filled, Me-society is that no matter what side we stake our claim on, someone is pissed off at us for our beliefs. Those who aren’t Christians will point their fingers at us, screaming “hypocrites, racists, conversative fools” all the while not realizing their closed minds are exposed, too. The fear of being ridiculed and not accepted leads us to find comfort in a group of like-minded individuals, clustered together against the storm of indifference. You know what? There are hypocrites in every aspect of society. We aren’t perfect all of the time – none of us! We were made to be in relationships and we, smartly so I think, search out other people who think and believe like we do. Sure, there are people in all groups afraid to venture outside of their safety zone and live a sheltered life – they are missing out. I want to experience it all. I believe that God created us to reach out a hand to our fellow man and give them a leg up, but too often in our society, we are pushing each other farther down the hell hole, maybe hoping to rise a little higher ourselves.
I don’t even want to comment on our society’s view of politics. It’s obvious and it is a trap. You look bad either way. I am just trying to stay afloat.
Thanks, Gordon for your thinking mind – not content to just sit back and rest – you continue to grow and make us grow with you!
It’s kinda like when your favorite band gets all political at a concert…I’m just saying.
giggle
Hopper, if you don’t fear God, haven’t trusted in Christ as your Savior, and don’t believe the Bible, no matter accurate it has been for 6,000 years+, then there is nothing wrong about attacking the Bible.
Attack away.
It’s been attacked by many and will never be surpassed as the most revered and most-read book in mankind’s history.
Here’s a great book for the Hoppers out there.
The Case for Faith – by Lee Stroebel, former managing editor for The Chicago Tribune. A former atheist, now believer after a multi-year research study of the Bible.
So you only want Gordo to stop “attacking” Christianity/the bible because you think he does fear god, believe in the bible, et al?
I’m asking this seriously, as you appear to be saying you don’t care if non-Christians do it; but if it is a Christian doing the snarking, then it’s unacceptable.
“Hot Choc liberal” – it is your choice to deny Christ and what He’s done for you and for mankind.
People who urinate on his pic or as the other mindless comment said, “diarrhea on the Bible”…anyone can do anything they want within the law.
But you’ll be standing before Him someday and I hope you change your thinking about Christ.
Stop focusing on the blunders of organized religions and focus on your personal faith. People stay focused on people and their shortcomings so much and it’s just an out to not address their personal decisions on faith. It makes them feel good to say “all Christians are hypocrites” because it gives them justification for not addressing their own accountability.
My father-in-law is a non-believer and says things like “all Christians are like those ‘faith healers’ you see at 2am on channel whatever”.
Well, all Christians aren’t like those fakers, and he, and everyone, will be accountable for their personal decision to accept or reject Jesus as the Messiah.
How did you get on this site?
Hey Gordo,
Loved this post. Wish you would do more of these. For the most I agree with post (although might debate some particulars). What I find amusing, however, is that most who reject closed systems turn around and promote a closed system. The author you quoted does exactly this! He rejects closed systems he doesn’t like and in the last line or so gives us his “recognized and accepted tests of merit”… Am I the only one here missing the intellectual dishonesty and inconsistency?
EVERYONE subscribes to a closed system even if they do not realize it.
Good stuff,
P1 Jeff
Um… No. *I* am P1 Jeff. You take it back!
We’re ALL, every single one of us, Hypocrites.
Attack the Koran?
Why would anyone do that?
It advocates (read it -it’s there)among other things -
1-the killing of all infidels (non islam-believers) – this is the source of your world-wide jihad)
2-it’s ok to beat your wife if she “displeases you”
3-it’s healthy to drink camel urine (look it up – no joke)
Seems like the Koran’s pretty bullet-proof to me…
You’re not very familiar with the Old Testament, are you?
nor the qur’an. try reading a book not recommended by Hannity or Glenn Beck. its written by Farid Esack. On Being a Muslim
I’ve never read any books by any talking heads. Nor will I waste my time on earth on a book trying to justify the most violent religion in the world (islam) and tell me how peace-loving they are. The evidence is easy to view, all over the world.
I love that you ponder human life and existence. I have always been very frustrated by the philosophical debate. It seems to me that every generation has argued over the nature and purpose of existence and frankly I don’t think humans will ever agree on an answer. I suppose there is value in presenting one’s ideas, but I feel our limited time on earth could be better spent outside the dialogue. If we would all use our gifts to help others it wouldn’t really matter if we agreed on a “system”. Of course, I am presupposing that Christian values (i.e. love God and love your neighbor as yourself) are the best values around which to structure a society. But that is another debate that would completely negate my whole point! In the end, regardless of what our beliefs are, we all want a safe and happy world for ourselves and future generations. The answer to me is stop talking, agree to disagree, and start giving back to society to the degree in which we are able.
Seems luke the real issue is epistemology; in that subject I much enloy the work of Cornelius Van Til.
Isn’t epistemology when chicks get the taint snipped to prevent tearing during childbirth?
As someone that was raised in a Baptist household I think that I understand where you are coming from. I too was very skeptical of the close minded Baptists who I was surround by every Sunday. In my opinion however there needs to be a separation between the actions of humans and the intentions of God. As many others pointed out it is our nature to pervert and distort things to make them suit or needs. Maybe our need is control of others, maybe it is greed, but we tend to manipulate the facts to our benefit. Or maybe it is just too much for us to understand that if someone sins, we should hate the sin, but embrace the individual. Jesus gave us this example when he embraced the sick, murderers, prostitutes, tax collectors etc. This could be seen as too difficult a concept for many to understand and therefore we choose to ostracize those members of society. We judge their behavior and disassociate from them because they are unclean and unlike us. The spirit of Jesus’ ministry was that of love, tolerance and joy. So many Christians get caught up in the minute details of their faith that they miss out on the joy of their salvation. It is this joy that is contagious and infectious that leads us to want to help each other. We want others to be able to experience the joy that we have and one way to do that is to serve others. This joy, in my opinion, is the heart of what Christianity should be. It is what guides us and keeps us on the right track, not rules and regulations. When we do something that is not in line with our believes we feel the joy fading.
I am glad that it sounds like you are still searching, because you will find answers. And when you do your questioning will have lead you to a deeper faith than you could have achieved otherwise.
Quick point on what liberals and non-believers love to point out.
Jesus embraced all sinners.
He did.
And then what?
He said “Go, and sin no more..”
People always forget the last part..just the embracing part.
Jesus never said, Anything goes” or “Do whatever feels good to you..”
Gordo,
Good words, love the show love the shtick.
It seems like there are a lot of things to be replied to, but I guess I will just take and overall reply.
I think a few people are missing the point when Gordon wrote, “I argued that closed, self-referential systems were highly intoxicating…” You’re attaching so much criticism to the word closed. And you’re missing the point of the comment. Christianity does have the openness that many have pointed to the bible as a reference to prove that point. However, Christianity on the spectrum of religions is very closed and ultimately self-referential. It’s all about how you act, who you do or don’t sleep with, if you do this and you do that. Hence self-referential, and the closed portion of it is very simple: most Christians and most Christian religions believe that if you do not follow and practice their religion then you’re damned.
Now let’s boil it down to something abstract but simple. All religions are seeking one thing: truth. It might be to concise to even refer to it as The Truth. In any case it would seem most open minded to say always learn, always seek further, and never settle in your journey towards it. Don’t get caught up in the “small” stuff, how you’re seeking truth and learning about life. Life is too short for that. Believe in Jesus, or the Dali Lama, or whomever just work to be the best person you can and try to allow both yourself and others to benefit from your enlightened state.
And last Mike, look up the story of Saddam & Gomorrah out of the bible if you want to see awesome imagery or some of the stuff in revelation. Take the bible as literal you’ll look like a fool as well. Don’t call out the Koran as an crazy sacred writing in comparison to any of the other sacred texts. You just look arrogant and uneducated.
Jones – how are your responses not arrogant but my opinions arrogant? You’ll have to break that down for me. As far as saying I’m ignorant, you didn’t spell Sodom right. You spelled it like the name of the dead dictator from Iraq.
What I wrote from the Koran is in its text. You can look it up any time. Do you think it’s crazy to have a jihad, or for mohammed to give permission to beat your wife, or to drink camel urine? I do, maybe you don’t. You’re entitled to your view, as we all are.
Please excuse the spelling, it’s a life long journey, and Google failed me.
Now, I wasn’t disputing what the Koran said, I believe you with no need to prove it. My point, which was not rebutted, but simply an ad hominem note about my poor spelling was replied instead, is that all Sacred writings have imagery and passages that are not things to live by for modern day humans. How one chooses to receive those passages and fulfill their life is the important part. The ignorant part, is for you to overlook the bible’s shortcomings in the same area as your criticisms of others.
Jones, one of the favorite things for Bible-attackers to do is to point out something for Leviticus and decry how this no longer applies to 2009.
Quick lesson – the Bible talks of many types of law – ceremonial law, Biblical law, moral law, etc.
Many things from the Bible were written for the Hebrews at that point in history.
Other laws – Ten Commandments, etc.- were written for all time, for eternity. Moral law.
If the world lived by those laws today (God’s wisdom), can you imagine what the world would be like if the world followed God’s wisdom, instead of self-appointed sages like Dr. Phil-good and Queen Oprah the 1st?
I am not an intellectual, and you aren’t either (we’re on a 1310 site, after all)
I just think I’ll keep trusting God’s word instead of man’s.
But good luck to you on your journey.
Alright, and so you afford the ability for the bible to be written for the Hebrews but the Koran cannot be written for the people of its time, and dated in same way? I’ll assume you’re not that hypocritical though, and just say, in my non-intellectuality, I am misunderstanding?
Jones, you have to know better. Maybe some of the people on this blog don’t.
The command to kill infidels. It’s in the KORAN. ALL MOSQUES USE THE KORAN.
Are there violent groups of Christians roaming about and killing all non-believers in their faith?
No.
And if one arose they would be universally condemned by millions of Christians – across the board.
HUGE DIFFERENCE, JONES. Please don’t tell me you equate the 2. I’d lose all respect for your prior comments.
When Muslims killed 3,000 innocent people on 9/11, there was jubliation and dancing in the streets of the Muslim world.
Can you see a group of Christians hijacking 3 planes, killing thousands in their workplace, then dancing in the streets and shooting guns in the air?
Quit telling yourself lies, Jones.
The 2 are polar opposites.
Jones, everyone is entitled to an opinion, but when you say something that is clearly wrong, you’re going to hear about it. In your post above, you say Christianity is about “It’s all about how you act, who you do or don’t sleep with, if you do this and you do that”
Not only is that not what Christianity is about, it’s pretty much the opposite. Biblical Christianity says that my actions, and your actions, can never be good enough, which is why we need a Savior.
“my actions, and your actions, can never be good enough, which is why we need a Savior.”
You know who thoroughly believes this kind of stuff? Victims of abuse who stay with their abuser(s).
“I know he loves me even if he never shows it…”; “I drove him to it…”; “I’m not good enough to leave this situation b/c nobody would want me…”; “I NEED to stay with him because I couldn’t make it on my own…” et al. I know from experience.
I also know from experience that it is the best thing you can ever do for yourself to fling that albatross off your shoulders, no matter how poor and friendless and scary and hard to break the habit of tearing down your own self is at first.
Whoa, and what does the Savior do for you? And how do you follow him and show your love for him? We can play which came first the chicken or the egg if you like. The bottom line: there is a rigid set of rules that Christianity requires. Whether the reason for acting the way is to make God happy, or to follow the Savior is immaterial. The point is these rules exist as a necessary part of the religion.
Clearly wrong might be a slight overstatement. You see, as I stated and you confirmed: its all about how you act and who you do or don’t sleep with… And so on. You confirming sentence of course is the one explaining my actions are never good enough I need a Savior. Now, if it were not about what I did or didn’t do, then why would you immediately explain to me about how my actions aren’t good enough. It seems its exactly about that: I just need a Savior to help me act rightly.
Jones, I’m sure you’re Mensa…
PORTIONS of the Torah were written for the Jews at that time..
..the STANDING ORDER to destroy infidels was not a temporary command for the Muslims. It is ongoing. Look around you. Read a paper. Go to mosque – outside the states.
For you to equate the Bible and the Koran is such a stretch that I don’t think even you, Pseudo-intellectual Jones, can pull that off.
The God of Abraham…and the “allah of the koran” are as different as can be.
I’ve read both – read both and see if you think there are any similarities.
Mike,
Hmmm they are different huh? Guess you might want to read up on that.
There is no set standing order of killing infidels. The religion is not structured like Catholicism with a governing body to decide things. There are radical sects of the religion, the same as the radical Christians who do horrible things.
There are mosques outside of the states that do not believe in killing infidels. That is certifiably false – what you said.
Derek – when I mentioned Gordo taking the occasional shot or making the sacreligious remark towards Jesus, I was talking about his show, not this specific article.
To genuine believers, we don’t like seeing Jesus attacked. What did He do to provoke people taking shots at Him? Poke at Christians all you want, but bashing Christ is different.
Recently Larry David pissed on a painting of Jesus in the name of “art”?..”comedy”?
Most believers don’t appreciate that.
If it had been another faith’s founder, leader, it would have sparked riots.
Christians are expected to take it..and like it.
Actually, I think you’re just expected to change the channel or flip the page or hit the back button – in other words, it’s a free country. You are free to stop looking at/listening to/reading things you don’t like at any time, just as Larry David is free to diarrhea all over a bible if he desires.
People do things I don’t appreciate all the time. It happens to everyone. If it’s not directly harming anybody, then we get over it.
Also, this Jesus dude is never going to have a shot at getting any respect from me as long as he remains so thin-skinned that he feels threatened by Gordo bits.
HC Liberal – so let me see if I get this.
You’re ok with someone pissing on the Koran, the Torah, the Bible…really doing anything on the airwaves….as long as people have a remote and can change the channel?
Are you serious? Man, you’re gonna have a whole lotta folks disagree with that.
I bet TV/movie/video game violence has nothing to do w/ actual increased violence in the streets.
What do those experts w/ their pesky facts know?
I’m pretty sure Jesus isn’t intimidated by anything a yuck-monkey throws out there in the name of comedy.
I’m pretty sure that he’s not intimidated by the lost, the doubters and the disrespect and the profanities.
I don’t think the Messiah is intimidated by anything.
I do think there’s a lot of cocky, bold blowhards that are going to be very intimidated when they pass from this earth and stand before His throne. That day awaits us all.
I believe that our disagreements on these issues stem from two factors. One, we are by nature self-centered, prideful and stubborn, and we have a natural desire to be right and to win. Second, we have a tendency to make things more complicated than they need to be. Sure, faith is a mystery but it is also pretty simple. Many years ago I came to the point where I realized that I am by nature a sinner and that I cannot save myself, and I have placed my faith and trust in Jesus Christ as my personal Saviour and Lord. I also believe that the Bible is inspired by God and provides an instruction manual for every decision in life. My belief system gives me great joy and enables me to experience a full and abundant life and to look forward to spending eternity in heaven. As naive as some others may think I am, no one can dispute my personal testimony. My belief system works for me. On the other hand, I realize that others have different belief systems and I don’t condemn or judge anyone who doesn’t share my belief system.
God said to Abraham; “Kill me a son”.
Abe said; “Man you must be puttin me on?”
God said; “No”
Abe said; “What?”
God Said; “You can do what you want Abe, but ah, next time you see me comin you’d better run!”
Abe said; “Where you want this killin done?”
God said; “On 1310 The Ticket, America’s favorite radio station”.
A)Anyone that describes Bob Dylan as a poet and quotes him, really needs help
B) if you believe that god created all we see, your premise is to not view that in definitive terms and let that guide your life……right.
C)The topic is mental masterbation
Bob Dylan is one man I would love to meet. You don’t think this is poetry?
Oh, what’ll you do now, my blue-eyed son?
Oh, what’ll you do now, my darling young one?
I’m a-goin’ back out ‘fore the rain starts a-fallin’,
I’ll walk to the depths of the deepest black forest,
Where the people are many and their hands are all empty,
Where the pellets of poison are flooding their waters,
Where the home in the valley meets the damp dirty prison,
Where the executioner’s face is always well hidden,
Where hunger is ugly, where souls are forgotten,
Where black is the color, where none is the number,
And I’ll tell it and think it and speak it and breathe it,
And reflect it from the mountain so all souls can see it,
Then I’ll stand on the ocean until I start sinkin’,
But I’ll know my song well before I start singin’,
And it’s a hard, it’s a hard, it’s a hard, it’s a hard,
It’s a hard rain’s a-gonna fall.
poetry for sure.
I think Bob D.’s voice is the creepiest, most tortured sound a person has emitted and is similar to a dying rabbit after getting nailed by a shotgun.
Since I was the one who posted the “Dylan” lyric, I am assuming you are referring to my post, no?
A}Anyone who fails to recognize that a Beatles lyric, attributed to Bob Dylan from a Rolling Stones’ album title is simply an absurd joke, is either 1)wound a little too tight or 2)much younger than I am. Or both.
B)I _do_ believe these things… and yet I don’t feel comfortable passing judgment on one’s mortal soul (ON OTHER CHRISTIANS EVEN) because they follow the gourd when I have removed one shoe (watch Life of Brian for that reference). I know, I know… “I’m just not strong enough in my faith”… I heard that most of my young life. Thankfully, I realized that God makes that call, not you, me or the rest of the congregation. And if you get warm fuzzies because you are CERTAIN I am going to hell for being “lukewarm” then try, for once, to keep it to yourselves.
What got me back into going to church was the message of Jesus’ love and acceptance in the Gospels, not the hell-fire and brimstone threat of Revelations or smitings of the Old Testament. When you start try to love the least among us, it makes it harder to see things in black and white… IMHO.
C) Thank you for putting the “dried e” in masturbation.
What is this type of intelligent and considered discourse doing on this site. I’ve fallen down the rabbit hole.
Gordon – Do you find the “dueling bible quote” debate format entertaining or a whip?
Great points Gordo. I believe you are right on the money here. Now, if we could get you to stop making AIDS jokes.
Gordo,
As I someone who is studying in a school of theology right now, thanks. Thanks. It is refreshing to know that my [potential] work is not in some ivory-tower in the land of academia. Good stuff.
apparently these are Two meant for Everyone.
Christianity is the only way for salvation.
A seeker of TRUTH must shun no science, scorn no book, nor cling fanatically to a single creed. Somewhere between all of the above lies the truth.
Amen brother (ohhh the irony)
Yeah, non-absolutism has really gotten our nation far in the last 20-30 years, hasn’t it?
Nothing’s wrong..nothing’s right..leave it up to the individual and what “feels right” to him/her..if it feels right, do it.
Basically, let mankind’s “wisdom’ take charge, and turn your back on God’s wisdom..
Take a look at the crime rates, public schools, the world we live in..
Do you think we need God, or are we doing just fine in our sectular world?
Crime rates, short skirts, baggy pants…blah, blah, blah. The world isn’t any worse than it was five hundred years ago. In a lot of ways it’s better, but no thanks to the people who keep telling us everything was better “back in the day.” Read some history; every generation, there’s always somebody who thinks things are more degenerate than they were back in the good old days. In our country, they usually do it while waving a cross around.
X – well, it sounds like you’ve done a lot of research on your “the world is no worse now than 500 years ago”…you’re very specific.
Forget 500 yrs ago, how bout 50 yrs ago?
Apparently higher and higher proprtions of murder, violence, abortions, theft, drop-outs, gangs, rapes and so on don’t bother you.
Well, good for you and your peace with what’s going on all around you. You must not be trying to raise kids in the 2009 world – if you were you wouldn’t be so blase’ about the trends, backed up for hard stats.
G’s post made me think back to this billboard my family and I saw on the way home from Ft. Worth and then immediately looked up on my eBible on my phone, while driving mind you. (Gordo mentioned these billboards a month or so back on the Musers)
http://whywouldwe.org/affirmedgaycouple.htm
Consider the norms (not the 1310 variety) of today and what “possibly” could be lost in translation from yester-year to now as you are reading it. As imperfect as Man has proven himself to be (see thesmokinggun.com), how does one come to accept that writings passed down over thousands of generations have arrived with the same meaning and unaltered intent as when it was delivered the first time? Think about all the zealots and corruption in the church over the years using religion as a vehicle for power over another human being. Not one yuck-monkey in the bunch willing to alter some text for a few laughs?
Right? Wrong? Baseless? Accurate? Inaccurate? Where does my dingus go after reading this?
Now, are either of you homosexuals?
You mean, like, flaming, or…
Well, it’s a standard question we have to ask.
No, we’re not homosexual, but we are “willing to learn”.
Now Debate.
Not commenting about the homosexuality thing, because Christianity isn’t about homosexuality; it’s about the need for a Savior, as I mentioned earlier. I am specifically commenting about your assertion that the bible isn’t trustworthy because it’s so old.
If God wants us to use the bible as His way of speaking to us, then He’s surely capable of keeping it intact. He is, after all, God.
Yawn!
I’m just glad I have my lucky glow in the dark mood watch to believe in!
Well done Gordo. First of all the demarcation between political affiliations really makes no difference. The framers of the const. intentionally designed a gov’t that would be bureaucratic for the sole purpose of making any real radical change impossible. 2 years in congress, 6 in the senate, 4 as president. If you are really f-ing things up, the gov’t moves too slow for any of these people to make a radical change. It is evolutionary and takes time.
As for the article you posted, we are all in fear. The biggest of those fears being death. No one has survived it to gives us a guide, we are on our own and can’t stand it. Become okay with your eventual demise and everything else gets much easier..
Koran….pleasssssssssseeeee. Have to scoff at any so called religion that prays to a meer mortal man. Mohammed, Buddha etc etc etc….
Exactly. Or our lovely doorknockers, the Mormons (following nut case Joseph Smith) and Jehovah’s Witnesses (following more nuttier Charles Taze Russel – who FOUR TIMES incorrectly predicted the end of the world.
Yeah, I’m gonna throw my eternal fate behind that dude.
Muslim do not pray to Mohammed.It is a sin in Islam to pray to anything other than God. Buddhist don’t pray to Sidhartha. Each of those men said that they are not gods. Sidhartha actually said that there is no god.
Christians pray to a man.(your arguement is that he’s not a mortal man is much debatable)
Derek, Christians pray to God, in the name of Jesus.
“Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name…”
(You’ve heard that one, at least once in your life, right?)
Love me some Gordo, but apparently I hate 65 percent of the morons who post these comments.
Suck it.
Back atcha, slick.
Come on people! It’s fairly clear that Mr. keith has some issues with religion rooted in his upbringing. Thus his “skepticism” of “smothering certitude” says it all….and it’s a great point.
My feelings towards christianity and religion in general have changed as i’ve matured. When I was a teenager, I was convinced I was invincible and that there was no god. As i’ve grown older and seen people I love pass away, I’ve begun to hope for a God. It’s comforting to feel there’s a place where we’ll all see each other again.
As we grow older and less flexible in all manner of ways, we start looking for constants, comforts, an ancient dogma set in stone for hundreds…thousands of years to snuggle up to.
As I see it, religion serves two purposes. The first would be Mr. Keith’s “closed, self-referential systems” that are “highly intoxicating and seductive” letting you big-time on all the other religions out there because you’re obviously right. The 2nd purpose of religion is to propagate peaceful coexistence. We don’t wanna fight amongst ourselves, right? Save that for the barbarian hordes!
So there you have it. It’s all about the fear of imminent death or a moral high ground. Or rather that moral highground is enforced by the fear of the afterlife. Seems like fear is the Modus operandi here.
So I think the point Gordon is trying to construe here is that all of this is ridiculous and irrelevant. It’s wrong to take a spiritual or political side blindly. You must remain forever skeptical while at the same time remain accepting of others.
Well it seemed that I got a great dialog going. All I have to add is this; If I’m wrong about my belief in Christ Jesus and the accuracy of the Holy Bible then nothing happens to me after I die. Just eternal sleep. But if you who do not believe are wrong, what happens to you after you die?
Are you saying you’re a Christian out of death fear; think you just proved the other side of the discussion. Love this last resort argument; it’s kinda like sticking out your tongue.
I refer all to today’s Morning News comics – “Non Sequiter” Page 7E
Maybe my point comes across as some sort of force field but you have to admit it is thought provoking. And the answer to your question is no, I’m not a Christian because of “death fear”. I’m a believer because I realized the truth that I needed to be saved. I realized that the one true God loves me (He died for you and me) and my response was to love Him back and repent and receive His gift of salvation. My question to unbelievers is valid.
You said “If I am wrong about my belief in Christ Jesus and the accuracy of the Holy Bible then nothing happens to me after I die.”
Why do you assume this? If you are wrong, then what ever is “right” could be a God that condmens you for you belief in Christ Jesus. It could be eternal sleep like you said, but it could be eternal damnation, if you are wrong.
I think you are wrong, by the way.
You also said, “But if you who do not believe are wrong, what happens to you after you die?”
I think the answer is Jehovah condemns us to Hell for eternity …… if Christianity is right. If not, it could be damnation from another god or eternal sleep. It could be something else. I don’t know what happens when I die.
Personally, I think the concept of eternal damnation is ridiculous. I will live on earth for less than 125 years. Much less! It seems ridiculous that I would be rewarded or punished for ETERNITY for my actions in this short life.
I am willing to believe in a god, but I do not believe in Christianity, Judaism or Islam. I don’t know much about other religions. Maybe I should learn.
Best wishes to all.
Clinton,
So I guess you are equating our intelligence with animal instincts? Dogs and Monkeys do not have the same thought process we do. They have to be taught. You can train a dog or a monkey not to hump other animals. It is in our GOD given ability to differentiate between right and wrong that separates us from animals. In the animal world the only thing that matters is survival. There may be some sense of belonging to a clan or group but they will eat each other if it means basic survival. Yes, people will also but mostly only in the extreme circumstances.
Gordo….
This post is why most of us listen every day and why I check this site twice a day.
Your humour is more than appreciated…it’s necessary for many of us because it serves to take us away from some very challenging and troubling times.
This post however, offers necessary perspective and gives us all an opportunity (whether we agree or disagree) to examine and take a deeper look at ourselves and where we are going.
Great stuff……
Canada’s #1 P1
You can’t live in Canada and be a P1, can we please get a ruling on this?? I say P3 at best.
A C1, perhaps?
Funny….but my registration as a P1 wasn’t turned away.
But, if you’re that adamant, I’d be happy to emigrate.
However…..the overarching message should be to show some love to your neighbours, please.
Excellent stuff Gordo!! I encounter people hiding within these cocoons of certitude all the time because they are scared to death of being measured in an egalitarian manner. Performance matters- accountability exists when someone looks at themselves honestly. So few in our society do this. They are too busy starring in their own “mental movie” of their lives.
You use really big words.
We are all impressed, big time!
What, if a word isn’t in the Bible somewhere you don’t know what it means?
X – no, I know lots of vocab outside the Bible.
Yet another misconception about Christians and Christianity.
Followers are quaint.
Simple.
Child-like.
Colloquial.
A faith where you have to check your brains at the door and just believe – with no reasoning or logic.
You probably don’t read much, but there are thousands of believers who are far more advanced than you and I in every area of known intellect.
Love the libs and Hollywood types (w/ their 9th grade education) saying Christians are backwards and outdated.
Right.
Damn, Gordo you started some shit! Bush got a year of slacking off on the job and we should admire Obama for trying his ass off. The president is allowed some time off on the job, jeez! Part du, Religon is like my daughters night time Dora the explorer. It makes you feel warm and fuzzy and then you go to sleep. If we all were taught in reverse and then introduced to religon we all might think different. However that is not how this world works. I live the life of TV, beer, and sex. That is what makes me feel warm and fuzzy everyone else can f-off.
Gordon,
Who is that “wristwatch” girl on your website? What country is that?
WOW I did not know Gordon had such a gay following, he is like the Barbara Streisand of sports talk.
I read “this isn’t for you” and scrolled down to post this:
“Hot topic Gordynomite!”
What a nice fire. I roasted marshmallows for a good two hours watching the fire burn. Thanks, GK. All it took was one little match. The accelerant was already present. Do I throw on another log? Nah. When the fire goes out, we can all thank God.
Listen, just once, to Pastor Arnold Murray, of The Shepherds Chapel.You will hear the
Bible explained line by line, verse by verse.The way it should be. Gordo IS a Christian.But maybe, just maybe, his Father wasn”t the best one to be preaching to Gordo.You live in America you have had the chance to hear the truth,if you dont accept it, screw you.Yea a Christian can say that and mean it.clinton i hope you are not too set in your ways at this time, because you will see the light…….right before you see the light.
Right, Right, I like the game with the ball and the pants and stuff.
Keep the good stuff coming tall man with black beard.
WitBakedPotatos